The (-) symbol with initial deposit

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Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

I noticed months ago when playing with Cyclos communities that the initial amount credited to an account was prefixed with a (-) symbol indicating a debt. I am interested in an asset monetary system so can this (-) be modified or removed, especially in the new version of Cyclos 4.2 Pro?

TSRalex
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Austria

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by TSRalex »

IMHO is such a initial deposit given (credited) by the community - that means a claim against the member for the community and for the account of the member it´s a debt to the community.

On that is a minus as prefix OK, but I can see too, that it could lead to some misunderstandings and a lot of necessary explanations to the members.

A possibility with an basic parameter, how the view for the initial deposit should look, would bring a comfortable situation for, isn´t it?

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

A debt banker loans a member his life force as a debt (-) while an asset banker loans a member his life force as an asset. The '(-) sign then creates a philosophical problem for me so I am hoping there is an easy way to remove it? Perhaps the administrator could comment? Cheers.

admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1423
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:31 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by admin »

Hi,

There is no easy way to remove this. You could opt for positive only balances. Giving credit with initial payments.

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

Ok and how would I give credit with the initial payment?

When a member joins I want them to have an initial credit (+) of 500Q. Do I then have to change the (-) manually in each account or is there a default way (such as positive only balances?) or by having (+) 500Q as the default amount when an account is opened?

Or can the (-) sign in the software be changed to a (+) sign?

Cheers.

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

TSRalex above said the ‘initial deposit (is) given (credited) by the community - that means a claim against the member for the community and for the account of the member it´s a debt to the community.

This is known as debt banking and it is a plague upon humanity.

A debt banker loans a person their own life force and charges them interest for the privilege but the life force of the person is also an asset to a community and it can be recorded as an asset. This is why recording the first unit of currency as either a (+) or (-) is critical to the entire banking system which will surround this monetary unit.

To not have this option in Cyclos seems to me to be a profound philosophical error, an error which would have Aristotle (‘money is meant for trade… not profit’) weeping in his grave.

Is it possible that Cyclos can add this (+) feature to the new release of Cyclos Pro as I am sure it would only be a minor adjustment to the software?

Several thousand years of monetary philosophy surround this simple choice of symbol and if I am condemned to the (-) then it will probably stop my entire project in its tracks!

Cheers Elixer

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

TSRalex above said the ‘initial deposit (is) given (credited) by the community - that means a claim against the member for the community and for the account of the member it´s a debt to the community.

This is known as debt banking and it is a plague upon humanity.

A debt banker loans a person their own life force and charges them interest for the privilege but the life force of the person is also an asset to a community and it can be recorded as an asset. This is why recording the first unit of currency as either a (+) or (-) is critical to the entire banking system which will surround this monetary unit.

To not have this option in Cyclos seems to me to be a profound philosophical error, an error which would have Aristotle (‘money is meant for trade… not profit’) weeping in his grave.

Is it possible that Cyclos can add this (+) feature to the new release of Cyclos Pro as I am sure it would only be a minor adjustment to the software?

Several thousand years of monetary philosophy surround this simple choice of symbol and if I am condemned to the (-) then it will probably stop my entire project in its tracks!

Cheers Elixer

TSRalex
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Austria

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by TSRalex »

Dear Quantar, on fact, that you did name me explicit, I´m answering now from the philosophic side.

As I wrote in my first posting in this thread my understanding for your request is given, but as you are bringing the philosophy discussion up for banking & monetary systems, I´ll do that now for views about communities and their members:

A community is built by members, that means, that each member is the community itself too! Stepping forward on this track I can say, that if the community is giving credit to me, as member of this community, the credit is given by myself.

You see - it´s only a POV! And the minus/plus-symbols are only signs for book-keeping. If it´s important for you only these arguments needs to be published to the members and philosophy side is saved. ;-)

You brought it up, that the credit is given by the bank. I did call it as given by the community! And that is a big difference!

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

It is true the (+) and (-) signs are only for bookkeeping but there is a big difference between (+)$100,000 in your account and (-)$100,000.

One figure liberates you and gives you choice, the other figure condemns you to debt bondage and a life of peonage.

This is why it is important for the first dollar in a new system to be created as a (+) and not as a (-).

When a member joins they are an asset to the trading system and their existence should be denoted as a (+), not as a cost or debt to the community.

TSRalex
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Austria

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by TSRalex »

@Quantar:

Only as suggestion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

:wink:

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

Yes, the paradigm shift!

So, to the administrator, is it possible then to have one of the 'preference' questions to be something like 'community deposits to be either (+) or (-)' to facilitate both asset and debt based alternative currencies?

Considering the complexity of the Cyclos software this would seem to me to be a very simple concept to implement?

A comment would be appreciated.

Cheers.

admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1423
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:31 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by admin »

Hi,

No this is not possible.
Usually mutual credit systems use a negative credit limit. Asset based systems can use intial system to user payments. This payment is usualy coming from a negative only system account, called the sytem debit or float account.
You can find some more information on this in the administration manual.

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

I am surprised that you say this is not possible.

I had a look at the Admin texts.

The Admin says:

An administrator can define a personal credit limit for an individual user or a credit limit for a whole group of users. This can be a negative credit limit what means the user can start with a zero balance and go negative (mutual credit model). For economic models that work with positive balances a payment coming from a system account will need to be configured in order to provide credit for users. It is possible to define a default credit limit automatically for new registered users. To set a negative default credit limit for a group of users go to a Member product with an account, then go to the Account section and set the 'Max. negative account balance'. A initial positive balance can also be configured in the Account section of a member product, under the option: Initial credit (you will have to select a system-to-user transfer type).

The Admin also says:

With this function it is possible to import users (their profile information). Optionally an initial credit can be deposited to the member account, or a debit payment can be withdrawn. The initial credit can be set by selecting an account type and selecting a payment type for positive balances and negative balances. If the amount specified in the csv file is positive, the payment type (transaction type) selected under "Payment type for positive balances" will be used to transfer money from the system account to the member account. When it is negative, the payment type (transaction type) selected under "Payment type for negative balances" will be used to transfer money from the member's account to the system account.

Surely then running a positive asset monetary system would be easy to run using the structure of the existing Cyclos software? Or am I missing something here?

Cheers.

Quantar
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 9:18 am

Re: The (-) symbol with initial deposit

Post by Quantar »

I forgot to mention that I am planning to use Cyclos Pro which may also have different parameters but I have yet to find a Cyclos Pro Forum, only this communities forum.

Cheers.

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